David Chang Opens Up About the Chili Crunch Controversy, Microwaves, Anthony Bourdain, and Guy Fieri

David Chang and the Face Full of Wasps

Welcome to Season 2, Episode 12 of Tinfoil Swans, a podcast from Food & Wine. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen and follow on: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

Tinfoil Swans Podcast

On this episode

This episode was recorded live onstage at the 2024 Food & Wine Classic in Aspen in an event called “David Chang Unfiltered,” but no one could have predicted that he’d be up there with a face full of wasp stings. The notoriously opinionated chef shares some raw talk about the chili crunch controversy, failure, living life under a microscope, mental health, Guy Fieri (spoiler alert — they’re BFFs now), and why people are so weird about microwaves.

Meet our guest

David Chang is a 2006 F&W Best New Chef and the founder of the Momofuku restaurant group and line of packaged goods, as well as Majordomo Media, which produces shows and podcasts like Ugly Delicious, The Dave Chang Show, Recipe Club, Secret Chef, and more. He is the author of the cookbooks Momofuku and Cooking at Home: Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying About Recipes (And Love My Microwave) (co-written with Priya Krishna), as well as the memoir Eat a Peach.

Meet our host

Kat Kinsman is the executive features editor at Food & Wine, author of Hi, Anxiety: Life With a Bad Case of Nerves, host of Food & Wine’s podcast, and founder of Chefs With Issues. Previously, she was the senior food & drinks editor at Extra Crispy, editor-in-chief and editor at large at Tasting Table, and the founding editor of CNN Eatocracy. She won a 2020 IACP Award for Personal Essay/Memoir and has had work included in the 2020 and 2016 editions of The Best American Food Writing. She was nominated for a James Beard Broadcast Award in 2013, won a 2011 EPPY Award for Best Food Website with 1 million unique monthly visitors, and was a finalist in 2012 and 2013. She is a sought-after international keynote speaker and moderator on food culture and mental health in the hospitality industry, and is the former vice chair of the James Beard Journalism Committee.

Highlights from the episode

On the pressure of expectations

“I was just thinking how much the restaurant industry has changed. I don’t want the next generation of people coming to work at Momofuku to be stuck with a legacy that doesn’t exist anymore. People don’t need awards. I say that all the time. I see this all the time when [people] go, ‘This better be the best meal I ever had.’ Settle down. There are a lot of chefs that have to live up to that pressure, because we don’t celebrate the good things that are said. We celebrate the negative things that are said, or they dwell in us.”

On closing restaurants

“If I still had decision making rights I’d open, like, 16 restaurants. But thank god Marguerite Mariscal is the captain of the ship and she was adamant, like, ‘No, we are going to do something. We’re going to zig where everyone zags.’ I was on the road a lot, 150 days a year at minimum, and it’s just not what we wanted to do. So we let our leases — and these are very successful restaurants — lapse after 10 years. At some point, these restaurants are going to close, and it’s not because of anything other than: Things close. It just happens. I think it’s unfortunate that the media has to make a story out of it more than it actually is.”

On the curse of “cool”

“I take full responsibility, and I know a lot of chefs probably feel the same way; we get stuck trying to be cool. Cool means being relevant, cool means winning awards, cool means being desired, having a long reservation list where people want to go into your restaurant. Cool is absolutely critical to a certain kind of restaurant and dining. And I think I cared all too much about that. I’m all for food as art, cause it is. I mean, food is better than it ever has been, right? It doesn’t have to be (expletive) cool. It just has to be good. And I think all of us, myself included, just need to remind ourselves of that. Good is plenty. That’s hard to do; 10% better than average is (expletive) hard to do.”

On talking about mental health

“I didn’t want to talk about it. I mean, there’s a lot of things I think I never wanted to talk about that I’m talking about right now. It’s pretty easy to mark the time when I started to talk about it — when I got that call that Tony [Bourdain] died, I just knew instantly. To be honest, sometimes I wish I didn’t have to talk about it. I don’t like doing it, but I have to. But I felt compelled simply because I connected the dots, and I was like, (expletive). It’s already a generation removed to some degree with younger cooks in the industry or people or fans. But, Tony was, for better or worse, the poster child of where you wanted things to be or wanted his approval on. I just knew that I had to talk about it. I don’t even remember why. But I just felt like now’s the time.”

On the magic of microwaves

“I love ideas in food where people laugh and scoff. Like, ‘That can’t be good,’ or, ‘You’re a hack.’ You know who uses a microwave? Albert Adria, arguably the greatest original chef of all (expletive) time. You’re better than Albert Adria? Go (expletive) off.”

“I also remember back in the day when induction started coming around. And everyone’s like, ‘Ugh. It’s for losers.’ ‘Ugh, it has to be over a fire.’ I was like, what is going on here? This is not Planet of the Apes.”

On apologizing to Guy Fieri

“I mean, I was drunk on stage with Tony [Bourdain]. He knew how to get me to open up. And I made fun of [Guy’s] shades and his look. You know, at those times, you don’t think about how you can hurt someone’s feelings and that they are sort of above it all. And even back then, Guy was massive. So you just don’t think it’s going to hurt somebody’s feelings until you find out that it does. And you’re like, (expletive). Cause you just forget. You just forget. One of the first people that called me during this whole stuff the past couple months was Guy. And not just one or two times. It was multiple follow ups to make sure that I was in a good place mentally. It’s funny how it all works out sometimes. I have no doubt if Tony was alive today that Tony would also apologize to Guy.”

On chili crunch and copyright

“I’m really afraid of talking about something that will be misconstrued or misunderstood in a situation. I think my opinion had a lot of nuance in a world where it’s hard to have nuance. And it made a lot of people upset. That was certainly not the intent. I had to learn a lot about trademark issues. In our 20 years of business, you tend to send some letters: a cease and desist. It doesn’t mean you’d necessarily have to enforce it. You just have to do it because that’s how the U.S. Patent Trademark Office works. You have to technically enforce it so you can actually own it. We could take up three hours to talk about it, but I will say it was never our intention to stop anybody else. At this point, I could say anything. I just know that people may never believe me.”

About the podcast

Food & Wine has led the conversation around food, drinks, and hospitality in America and around the world since 1978. Tinfoil Swans continues that legacy with a new series of intimate, informative, surprising, and uplifting interviews with the biggest names in the culinary industry, sharing never-before-heard stories about the successes, struggles, and fork-in-the-road moments that made these personalities who they are today.

This season, you’ll hear from icons and innovators like Daniel Boulud, Rodney Scott, Asma Khan, Emeril and E.J. Lagasse, Claudia Fleming, Dave Beran and Will Poulter, Dan Giusti, Priya Krishna, Lee Anne Wong, Cody Rigsby, Kevin Gillespie, Pete Wells, Christine D’Ercole, Channing Frye, Nick Cho, and other special guests going deep with host Kat Kinsman on their formative experiences; the dishes and meals that made them; their joys, doubts and dreams; and what’s on the menu in the future. Tune in for a feast that’ll feed your brain and soul — and plenty of wisdom and quotable morsels to savor.